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Re: FCB1010 as Bass pedal

chrisw_63
 

With the Translator you should be able to send any chord you want.  Maybe set up the lower tier foot switches with the regular triads and the upper tier with the modified ones?  For instance, in many songs the fifth chord sometimes has a seventh added, so for the key of C, you could have G on footswitch 5 and G7 on footswitch 10.  Another option would be to set some of them as 'modifiers', so if you turn on the sus4 modifier, all the chords you play would be sus4.  You'd have to have REALLY fast feet though, and I'm not sure I'd want to be the one to program it. 

On 11/19/2019 11:05 AM, Josef Albert Meile wrote:

Thanks chrisw_63 for your answers

Anyway, I guess that if I only connect the FCB1010 to my computer, which will do the postprocess and send the notes to the keyboard, then I shouldn't have any problem with the compatibility. I have an Emagic Unitor 8, so, I can route the devices easily.

Regarding Bome Translator: yes, that's the setup I'm testing now. The closest I got without using anything was sending "Note" messages; the keyboard detected the chords, but unfortunately this will only work for Mayor chords :-(

Best regards

Josef

 


Re: FCB1010 as Bass pedal

chrisw_63
 



On 11/19/2019 11:05 AM, Josef Albert Meile wrote:

Thanks chrisw_63 for your answers

Anyway, I guess that if I only connect the FCB1010 to my computer, which will do the postprocess and send the notes to the keyboard, then I shouldn't have any problem with the compatibility. I have an Emagic Unitor 8, so, I can route the devices easily.

Regarding Bome Translator: yes, that's the setup I'm testing now. The closest I got without using anything was sending "Note" messages; the keyboard detected the chords, but unfortunately this will only work for Mayor chords :-(

Best regards

Josef

 


Re: FCB1010 as Bass pedal

JM
 

Thanks chrisw_63 for your answers

Anyway, I guess that if I only connect the FCB1010 to my computer, which will do the postprocess and send the notes to the keyboard, then I shouldn't have any problem with the compatibility. I have an Emagic Unitor 8, so, I can route the devices easily.

Regarding Bome Translator: yes, that's the setup I'm testing now. The closest I got without using anything was sending "Note" messages; the keyboard detected the chords, but unfortunately this will only work for Mayor chords :-(

Best regards

Josef

 


Re: FCB1010 as Bass pedal

chrisw_63
 

On 11/17/2019 9:59 AM, Steve Pettinger wrote:
I have been wonder if there was a way to play chords via the fcb1010
as well. Would be very useful.
You would definitely need something like the Bome MIDI Translator, or a
DAW on a computer.  I made a setup with Ableton Live once that let you
play chords in any key just using the white keys, as if you were in the
key of C (or A minor, if it's a minor key).  Not only could you
transpose to any key, you could set the starting octave and how many
octaves you wanted to repeat the chord in.  Simple triad chords, but it
was easy to do.    It also had a Max4Live effect that found the lowest
note and sent that to a Bass channel. It was clunky, kinda sounded like
a toy Casio from the 70's with better audio, but it was fun to play with.


Re: FCB1010 as Bass pedal

chrisw_63
 

I agree.  Much easier to pick a CC#, send individual notes using it's Data.  If different CC's are really needed, 20-31 are enough for most scales (eight notes), and you can just transpose them to the scale you're using.  Personally, I'd use a transpose setup anyway, even with a single CC# - cuts down on remembering which pedal is which.


Re: FCB1010 as Bass pedal

chrisw_63
 

AFAIK, no one answered one of your original questions:  Is controller 03 really undefined?  The answer is, of course, yes, mostly.

TLDR: Whichever you use, test it and see if it has any undesired effects. You can always reset everything and change to a different controller number.  You only have to worry about YOUR MIDI setup.  Connections between different musicians gets really complicated really fast, and usually isn't done - at least in smaller setups.  So just research your gear, and you should be good.  If your stuff won't be connected to anyone else's, it can't interfere.  Use whatever works for you.

The fact is a lot of instrument and pedal manufacturers use non-standard MIDI implementations, and it can be hard to decipher their MIDI documentation, IF you can even find some.  Don't be afraid to call their tech support and ask direct questions.  They might be able to help you, and might not.  Maybe if they get enough calls they'll start paying attention to proper and easy to read MIDI documentation in their manuals (to those of you experienced in this field, don't laugh too hard).  If you can find the documentation, read it.  If it's hard to understand, just try to find any mention of the controller numbers you want to use.  Make sure to decipher whether they're talking in hexadecimal numbers or regular decimal. I really hate the ones that use hex for controller numbers and decimal for everything else.

From my admittedly limited experience (mostly helping others decipher those manuals), most non-standard stuff sticks to the lower undefined controller numbers, before the 20-31 range.  I usually stick to that higher range, mostly because it's sequential and easy to remember the numbers, but also because I've never seen any pedals or effects boxes that use them.  But like I said, if all you're using MIDI for is the PSR-9000, just pick one and go.  Oh, and one thing I've found really valuable - Write It Down.  Print it out.  Tape it to the box.  Nothing like adding gear down the line and having to use MIDI-OX or something similar to figure out which controllers and/or channels you set up three years ago.  That gets old fast.


Re: FCB1010 as Bass pedal

JM
 

Hi Jack

I have a MIDI shield and do a bit of Arduino programming with it, however it is time consuming. Have you looked into BomeBox? I know it is quite a bit more expensive, however, you could take the project you create with Bome MIDI Translator Pro and transfer it to BomeBox for execution there (with out a computer). You DO need to also have Bome MIDI Translator Pro license as well however and not the trial copy or the project will not work on BomeBox.

I haven't tried BomeBox: it looks good, but I think it is really expensive for my budget, so, I will first try the software solution with Bome Translate and if it works, then i will perhaps think about it.

The only way I've figured out to use the up and down pedals on the FCB1010 is to buy EurekaProm3 and then all pedals, LED's and displays would be programmable with Bome MIDI Translator Pro.
IO Mode is a really dumb mode so you would have to put all of the brains in the Bome (or Arduino), products. In IO, mode it doesn't send SysEX but sends unique CC for any pedal up/down and expression pedal movement. You can see what it sends by going to their website and looking at IO mode. It has a table of everything it sends and recieves.

I have heard also about the Eureka-Prom; however, I haven't done much trials with the pedal controller, so, first I will see if I get something and then I will consider this update, which seems to add more flexibility to the FCB1010

I've also been experimenting of getting the Arduino to send RT-MIDI across to my Mac. If I get that working, I could then integrate it with other products that support RT-MIDI.  So far, I'm having issues getting my attached ESP8266 wireless shield working.  The IDEA is to have my MIDI Shield and ESP8266 shields both attached and send and recieve MIDI over the network from any attached MIDI DIN device.  I know iConnectiity can do this with their products but iConnectivity is also a more expensive solution (unless you count my time in trying to get the Arduino to do it).
This sounds interesting.

Thanks for sharing your findings.

Best regards
Josef


Re: FCB1010 as Bass pedal

Jack Fenton
 

Thanks Jose,

I have a MIDI shield and do a bit of Arduino programming with it, however it is time consuming. Have you looked into BomeBox? I know it is quite a bit more expensive, however, you could take the project you create with Bome MIDI Translator Pro and transfer it to BomeBox for execution there (with out a computer). You DO need to also have Bome MIDI Translator Pro license as well however and not the trial copy or the project will not work on BomeBox.

The only way I've figured out to use the up and down pedals on the FCB1010 is to buy EurekaProm3 and then all pedals, LED's and displays would be programmable with Bome MIDI Translator Pro.
IO Mode is a really dumb mode so you would have to put all of the brains in the Bome (or Arduino), products. In IO, mode it doesn't send SysEX but sends unique CC for any pedal up/down and expression pedal movement. You can see what it sends by going to their website and looking at IO mode. It has a table of everything it sends and recieves.

I've also been experimenting of getting the Arduino to send RT-MIDI across to my Mac. If I get that working, I could then integrate it with other products that support RT-MIDI.  So far, I'm having issues getting my attached ESP8266 wireless shield working.  The IDEA is to have my MIDI Shield and ESP8266 shields both attached and send and recieve MIDI over the network from any attached MIDI DIN device.  I know iConnectiity can do this with their products but iConnectivity is also a more expensive solution (unless you count my time in trying to get the Arduino to do it).
.


Re: FCB1010 as Bass pedal

JM
 
Edited

Hi

You should be able to set up Bome MIDI Translator Pro to route CC14 and CC15 only between the FCB1010 and Bome MIDI Translator and either swallow the messages for other devices or do other processing as necessary.  I would check the manuals to determine if anything else in your setup is using CC14 or CC15 and if so, find another pair of unused controllers to use.
I guess this is one of the minor problems I will have and it is easily solvable.

I guess the question I have is that since FCB1010 has only 10 pedals (you cannot send messages with up and down pedal) you can send and there are 12 notes an octave, how do you handle the other 2.
My idea is to program each pedal with two control change events. With such messages, you can send values between 0 and 127. If you represent 127 in binary, then you will have:
| 1 |1 |1| 1 |1 | 1 |1 |
|F#|F|E|D#|D|C#|C|

Those are seven bits, which can be mapped to seven notes: from C to F#. There other missing notes: from G to B can be sent with a second control change event. So can I handle the whole 12 notes. Then I could say for example that pedal one should send:

Channel 4, Note on, value 0 -> I intend to send this message so that the keyboard actually plays a note, which is the expected behavior on a real bass pedal. Channel 4 would be the left voice of my keyboard. I would also send it to channel 1 (right 1), 2 (right 2), or 3 (right 3) if I want to.

Channel 16, Controller Change 14, value: 85 =
| 1 |0|1 | 0 |1 | 0 |1 |
|F#|F|E|D#|D|C#|C|

Channel 16, Controller Change 15, value: 17 =
|0|0|1| 0 |0| 0  |1 |
|- |-|B|A#|A|G#|G|

So, if you translate it to note on events, then you will have to send notes: C, D, E, F#, G, and B, which is the chord: CM7(#11). I already did a small script that will translate that numbers to notes; now I have to integrate it with Bome Translator, which as far as I have read, should be possible.

Anyway, you mentioned another interesting thing here that I was also thinking: "sending messages with up and down pedal". I think that's the most difficult part of this matter. I'm not sure how I will handle this; I will need first to send some "note on" events, then their espective "note off". I'm still thinking how to solve this. Perhaps I will have somehow to save the previous sent notes (Bome Translator has some variables to do this) and when a new chord comes or after some time, then I will have to send the note offs from Bome Translator. This is indeed the most complicated part. Other way would be to know if the FCB1010 sends some kind of SysEx when releasing a pedal, then I can just catch that message.

What pedal press, sequences would you use to produce all of the combinations of major, minor, M7, m7, diminished etc?
For my keyboard, there is a clear description on the manual of which keys from the left voice will fire which chord. So, my idea is to program some pedals with the chords I need. i'm aware that I won't be able to handle all chords, but usually the scores I have, use at most 4 chords. Anyway, if you want, you can at most program 10 chords per bank and if you want, you can even program the other banks.

Would you be using bank switches to control this?
I guess, I will only program individual pedals with the chords I need. Switching between banks while playing would be really a big challenge for me, which I will avoid right now.

I've thought of doing something like this before but this is where I hit a roadblock (aside from the fact that the layout of the FCB1010 is not like a keyboard).

Yes, I'm also aware that the real bass pedals would be much easier to play since they look like a keyboard. Anyway, I guess I will have to do it with I have.


Anyway, the Bome Translator is just a temporary solution for me. My plan is to use this:

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12898

which should be connected to an Arduino board. I have this one since a long time and I thought it would be nice to use it:

https://www.arduino.cc/en/Main/Arduino_BoardLeonardo


The reason for me for choosing the hardware solution instead of the "Bome Translator" is that I don't need to power on my laptop and have it next to me. I just have to connect a phone charger to the Arduino board and it will start working without me having to login or doing additional stuff.

Best regards

Josef


Re: Connections of relays to switch outputs (Tip/Ring/Sleeve jacks)

Musical Applications
 

Thank you, Xavier / Ossandust.
Sadly, I can't access the referenced document. (For some reason I cannot log in to the new group at https://fcb1010.groups.io. It said that I should receive an email with a password, but I didn't got it...)

Am Sonntag, 17. November 2019, 18:43:18 MEZ hat ossandust <ossan.dust@...> Folgendes geschrieben:



Re: Connections of relays to switch outputs (Tip/Ring/Sleeve jacks)

Musical Applications
 

Thank you very much, Jack. The schematic fits exactly to my analysis!
So, the "Switch 1" jack is actually a "Switch 1 / 2" jack if no plug is inserted at "Switch 2".

I think, it is similar to some stereo audio devices with two jacks where you can use two mono cables or one stereo at the first jack leaving the second unused. (Difference: at the FCB1010 the sleeves are separated if two cables are used.)


Am Sonntag, 17. November 2019, 20:59:59 MEZ hat Jack Fenton <jackf@...> Folgendes geschrieben:


So essentially if you want to use a single TRS cable to control both switches, plug it into S1. If you want to use 2 TS cables, plug in to S1 and S2. At least this is how I read it.


Re: FCB1010 as Bass pedal

Steve Pettinger
 

I have been wonder if there was a way to play chords via the fcb1010 as well. Would be very useful.

Steve


On Sun, 17 Nov 2019, 12:57 Jack Fenton, <jackf@...> wrote:
Hi, as I understand it, you could set up Bome MIDI Translator to convert incoming CC's to outgoing notes. As long select the right MIDI devices for input and output, the CC's should not interfere. They have a free trial version if you want to give it a try before deciding on a purchase. The trial version times out every 20 minutes at which point needs to be restarted, but it should be easy to determine within a 20 minute period whether what you want will actually work.


Re: FCB1010 as Bass pedal

Steve Pettinger
 


On Sun, 17 Nov 2019, 12:57 Jack Fenton, <jackf@...> wrote:
Hi, as I understand it, you could set up Bome MIDI Translator to convert incoming CC's to outgoing notes. As long select the right MIDI devices for input and output, the CC's should not interfere. They have a free trial version if you want to give it a try before deciding on a purchase. The trial version times out every 20 minutes at which point needs to be restarted, but it should be easy to determine within a 20 minute period whether what you want will actually work.


Re: Connections of relays to switch outputs (Tip/Ring/Sleeve jacks)

Jack Fenton
 

So essentially if you want to use a single TRS cable to control both switches, plug it into S1. If you want to use 2 TS cables, plug in to S1 and S2. At least this is how I read it.


Re: Connections of relays to switch outputs (Tip/Ring/Sleeve jacks)

Jack Fenton
 

It indeed does look like SW plug inserted , will effect switch 2.
I found the attached schematic.


Re: Connections of relays to switch outputs (Tip/Ring/Sleeve jacks)

ossandust
 


Connections of relays to switch outputs (Tip/Ring/Sleeve jacks)

Musical Applications
 

Hi there,

I just tried to figure out how the switch relays (let call them K1 and K2) are connected to the jacks labeled with Switch 1 and Switch 2.
So, this is what I found out:
- The relais K1 and K2 connect the relating tip (T) with the sleeve (S) of the Switch outputs if the relating relay is active.
- The contacts of Switch 2 have only a "mono" configuration: the ring R2 is always connected to the sleeve S2.
- The contacts of Switch 1 behave differently if the Switch 2 output is used or not:
a) If there is a plug inserted in the Switch 2 jack, K2 controls if the ring R1 is connected to the sleeve S1.
b) If there is no plug inserted in the in Switch 1 jack, the ring R1 is not connected to S1, independently of K1 and K2.
=> So, there must be some auxiliary contacs at Switch 2 which are closed if no plug is inserted.
- The contacts T1, R1, S1, T2, R2, S2 are not connected to the ground.

I did not check any wiring inside, I only used a continuity tester at the outside.
Can anybody confirm or correct my investigations? Does anybody have a schematic of this detail?

Cheers,
michaeL


Re: FCB1010 as Bass pedal

Jack Fenton
 

Hi,
You should be able to set up Bome MIDI Translator Pro to route CC14 and CC15 only between the FCB1010 and Bome MIDI Translator and either swallow the messages for other devices or do other processing as necessary.  I would check the manuals to determine if anything else in your setup is using CC14 or CC15 and if so, find another pair of unused controllers to use.

I guess the question I have is that since FCB1010 has only 10 pedals (you cannot send messages with up and down pedal) you can send and there are 12 notes an octave, how do you handle the other 2.  What pedal press, sequences would you use to produce all of the combinations of major, minor, M7, m7, diminished etc? Would you be using bank switches to control this?  Just trying to wrap my head around it.  I've thought of doing something like this before but this is where I hit a roadblock (aside from the fact that the layout of the FCB1010 is not like a keyboard).


Re: FCB1010 as Bass pedal

JM
 

Hi Jack

Yes, I know about that trial version and already had it. I was only concern about this controller messages interfering with another devices. Anyway, I rethink a little bit after having posted this message and I figured out that as soon as I set the controller messages to a MIDI channel that it is not been listened by the PSR-9000, then I guess this won't affect my setup. My keyboard has two midi ports (2 midi ins and 2 outs), so, I will use one of them for the messages coming from the FCB1010 and disable port 16, then send the "Note ON/OFF" events through another channel. This is possible and I have already done it.

I would like only to know how another people has solved this. Perhaps there is a simpler way than the one I'm thinking now.




On my case, I will use two controllers: #14 and #15 to be able to send the chords. I will use the full fingered mode of Yamaha since I also want to play the chords with my left hand too, so, single fingered is not enough for me and besides of that, this mode doesn't include all existing chords.

Controller 14 will be used to send status of the first 7 notes (C until F#), ie:
    |1|0|1|0|1|0|1| = 85 -> So, starting from right to left, we will have:
   
    bit 0 = C  = 1
    bit 1 = C# = 0
    bit 2 = D  = 1
    bit 3 = D# = 0
    bit 4 = E  = 1
    bit 5 = F  = 0
    bit 6 = F# = 1

which means that the notes: C, D, E, and F# must be sent. Controller 15 will be used to send the last 5 notes (G until B), ie:
    |0|0|1|0|0|0|1| = 17 -> So, starting from right to left, we will have:
   
    bit 7  = G  = 1
    bit 8  = G# = 0
    bit 9  = A  = 0
    bit 10 = A# = 0
    bit 11 = B  = 1
    bit 12 = 0
    bit 13 = 0
   
which means that notes: G and B must be sent. As you see, bits 12 and 13 will be always 0 (zero). I will use those last two bits to turn off all notes; I guess this is convenient in some cases.

So, at the end, I will send C, D, E, F#, G and B, which according to the manual of my keyboard is a CM7(#11) chord.

Best regards
Josef


Re: FCB1010 as Bass pedal

Jack Fenton
 

Hi, as I understand it, you could set up Bome MIDI Translator to convert incoming CC's to outgoing notes. As long select the right MIDI devices for input and output, the CC's should not interfere. They have a free trial version if you want to give it a try before deciding on a purchase. The trial version times out every 20 minutes at which point needs to be restarted, but it should be easy to determine within a 20 minute period whether what you want will actually work.

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