I am using Scuffham VST in Ableton Live and had good success using the 'stock'  non UNO FCB 1010 board to select different presets and control Ableton easily.  What I was missing was a stomp mode where the state of the effect would not get lost when I switched presets.  So I purchased the Eureka PROM not understanding the differences between it and the UNO.  Big Mistake - I think. 

Is anyone using Ableton with their UNO in a way that supports switching presets on buttons 6-10 and using buttons 1-5 for effects?  Ideally I'd like to use one of the 1-5 buttons for tap delay.  

Help much appreciated.
Carl

Yes. Works fine with Scuffham. Keep in mind when posting that controlling Ableton is not the same as controlling a VST within Ableton.
Helps to avoid confusion if you're specific.
IME the FCB footswitches are not very reliable for Tap Tempo, but YMMV.

I’ve just installed my Uno2 eprom and done my first script and got it working on the board. 

There are 3 types of ways of programming the buttons - effect - where state is maintained, preset - which is toggled off by pressing another preset or trigger where it just sends midi on the button press. 

In all cases you can program midi to be sent when the effect preset trigger is engaged or disengaged. 

I’m actually blown away by how much easier I find programming it compared to all the button presses you had to do with the out of the box FCB. I’ve had problems in the past with the Ableton looper because it doesn’t like CC messages or gets confused. With the Uno2 there’s no doubt what is going on and when it’s going on.

I bought the Uno2 so I could control my Akai Force with SysEx but I can easily repurpose for Ableton. 

Please help me make the transition from a standard MIDI approach in Ableton to the custom controller approach.

What I'm used to:
- Connect the FCB to my interface, map the FCB 1010 buttons to unique CC channels, use MIDI channel 2 for Ableton Live.  
- then I simply selected which parameter I wanted to tweak and assigned a foot switch button via the MIDI learn in Ableton.  Worked Great.  

What I am trying to do now:
- use EJ's S-gear.txt midi controller config in Ableton so I can have both stomp/presets as well as tap tempo.
- I have copied the txt into the UserConfiguration.txt file in a Scuffham subfolder and controller is listed in the preferences section as "scuffham".  all good.
Track and Remote are set in the MIDI Port section (I'm on a Mac and using the AU S-Gear plug-in)
- So now my question is WHAT NOW? Do I assign specific parameters using MIDI Learn or do I make the config updates in the controller config file?

Thanks for your patience!

I assume that you're trying to control S-Gear as a plugin in Ableton, not Ableton itself.
Unless things work very differently in MAC WORLD:
Read the "Instructions for S-Gear UNO2.txt" file.
Load the S-Gear.txt file into your FCB/UNO2, create a MIDI track in Ableton that takes it's signal from your MIDI Interface to which the FCB is connected, then point that track at the audio track where the S-Gear VST is loaded.
Activate the MIDI track.
Open the S-Gear UI.
Click MIDI. Select an empty parameter slot.
Click Parameter and select the parameter you want to control.
Select LATCHING.
Use the L/R arrows to scroll to the CC# you want to use.
Turn the Slot ON.
Done.
Next parameter.
The presets just work.
I have to assume that the AU plugin format works the same way as VST2.

Here's a screenshot.

On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 02:51 AM, EJ SHELDON wrote:

I have to assume that the AU plugin format works the same way as VST2.

Most plug-in authors that support more than one format just write VSTs, then use 'wrapper' code that contains the VST code and basically turns it into an AU or other format.  Back in VST2 there were things you had to be careful of because they wouldn't work in AU, but I think VST3 has solved most of those issues.

On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 10:39 AM, chrisw_63 wrote:

Most plug-in authors that support more than one format just write VSTs, then use 'wrapper' code that contains the VST code and basically turns it into an AU or other format.  Back in VST2 there were things you had to be careful of because they wouldn't work in AU, but I think VST3 has solved most of those issues.

AFAIK, VST3 doesn't allow for Preset changes via MIDI. At least, that's the way it is in PC World.

The VST3 S-Gear is unstable in Ableton Live.  the AU version is rock solid.

so question - can someone point me to the deets on how to load the s-gear.txt file into the FCB1010?  I am used to using ripwerx to manually assign the buttons in the grid.

NOTE: the main reason I'm using Ableton with S-Gear is so that I can add effects before and after the S-Gear AU plugin.  The MIDI control I need to do will effect both parameters in the s-gear plugin as well as various compressors, univibe, pitch and other plugins.

I am SO CLOSE.  thanks for the guidance.

You're in an UNO2 thread. What chip is in your FCB?

On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 06:51 PM, EJ SHELDON wrote:

Load the S-Gear.txt file into your FCB/UNO2

EJ- you are a busy guy.  looking through the group.  you answer soooo many questions.  impressive.

so here's my question - you said "Load the S-Gear.txt file into your FCB/UNO2" above.  ahhh  and how does one do that exactly.  I can't figure out how to load a txt tile into any of the FCB1010 editors.

I was thinking the txt file was what got loaded into Ableton in the remotescripts.

What's confusing to me after going through the documentation is:

• programming the FCB1010 with an editor - this allows me to program each button with unique CC commands. cool.  BUT
• what is the effect of "loading the <>.txt files into s-gear.  does this overwrite what was programmed?

I'm sure once i get the workflow working I will not have to ask such dense questions.  is there documentation that describes each stage?  if not I'd be happy to write it up

here's what i *think* has to happen:

1. Reset firmware once the UNO is installed in FCB1010
2. calibrate expression pedals
3. here's where it gets fuzzy?  do i load the "txt" file into the editor and dump this to the FCB1010 
4. OR do I manually program CC values in the editor and dump to the FCB1010
5. THEN what do i need to do in the DAW to use the configuration in the 1010?
6. Do I customize a remotescript and use the FCB1010 "as configured" in the DAW
7. OR Do I select each parameter in the DAW and use MIDI Learn to map the function to the FCB1010 buttons

OR Do I have this completely wrong?

thanks for your help. 

On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 09:27 PM, humbuckr wrote:

OR Do I have this completely wrong?

Yes.

Asking again - what chip do you have in your FCB? UNO? What version#?

While you're at it, what MIDI interface are you using?

Here's the config I am using.  

• Controller: FCB1010 with Uno v.1.0.4 chip (just got it)
• Computer: Macbook Pro running Catalina 10.15.7
• Interface: Focusrite 2i4
• DAW: Ableton Live Lite 11.0.12
• Amp Modeling: Scuffham S-Gear
• Additional Plugins:
  • Waves Compressor, MeldaProduction MHarmonizerMB, Aegean Pitchproof, others...
  • My current Ableton project uses 8 Channels in Ableton each with its own unique signal chain (see images below)
  • My current config uses a CC channel for each 1010 button to switch channels in Ableton so I can easily move between very different signal chains.
  • My goal is to continue with this approach vs going full stompbox
• FCB1010 Editor:
  • FCB/Uno Control Center (free version lets me read FROM the 1010)
  • Ripwerx used for editing configs and dumping TO the 1010 (read from 1010 doesn't work)

Thanks for working around my confusion!  

Clean Channel Example


Crunch Channel

I asked Roger to move your posts to a separate thread for the sake of clarity.
You jumped into a thread whose focus was using the UNO2 chip.
You don't HAVE the UNO2 chip, you have the ORIGINAL UNO chip, v1.0.4.

You're trying to use a sysex I wrote that you're calling S-Gear.txt.
I've uploaded a lot of files over the years, and I don't specifically remember that one.
Please attach a copy so I can make sure that we're talking about the same thing.

In the meantime, some basics:

In order to route MIDI to a VST (vs Ableton itself) you need to create a MIDI track to receive the MIDI messages from the FCB. Then you need to set the Output of that track to the track (singular) that contains the VST you want to control. Note my use of SINGULAR. In Ableton (unlike Reaper) you can only route one MIDI track's Output to one Audio track. This means that to control 8 instances of S-Gear on 8 Audio tracks you would need 8 MIDI tracks. Since LIVE LITE only allows 8 tracks, that isn't going to work.

Since, by default, Ableton responds to MIDI on Channel 1, you would need to send the S-Gear commands on Channel 2 (anything other than Channel 1). OR you would have to send on a different channel for each instance of S-Gear. The latter will not work because of the reason described in the next section. What that means is that each of the 8 MIDI channels would require a FS (footswitch) in your FCB to enable/disable it, or a scheme whereby enabling any specific MIDI track disables all the rest. Again, the latter won't work because of the reasons outlined below.

Each FCB preset, whether used to change presets or as stomps in UNO, can send 2 CC#s on 2 controllers (Cnt1 and Cnt2 in Behringer-speak). Both CCs are sent each time you press the FS. These can be sent on different channels with different CC#s, but those channels are GLOBAL. IOW - Cnt1 will always be sent on the same channel in EVERY preset, and likewise for Cnt2. In addition, if you use a Toggling CC in a normal preset (not UNO Stomp) it uses BOTH controllers, so only one CC can be sent at a time. In UNO Stomp mode it works the same way except that you can still send 2 Toggling CCs per Stomp FS.

I could go on and on about the problems inherent in your seemingly simple configuration. What appears to offer endless flexibility also brings endless complications in configuring a control surface.

Not to say that it can't be done, just not to full advantage with your current configuration. You need either a more flexible DAW or a more flexible controller.

Or both.

Ableton is a GREAT DAW for electronic music production. With a proper dedicated control surface entire symphonies can be constructed and performed LIVE.
However, it's NOT the best choice for your application. The LITE version doesn't allow enough tracks, and the full-fat version is WAY expensive, total overkill, and still not great for your purpose. Reaper would be a MUCH better choice.

FCB/UNO is a terrific controller for many things, but not for what you're trying to do. FCB/UNO2 would be a MUCH better choice.
BUT... how comfortable are you with REAL (not GUI) programming? Like, using a proper code editor and programming language with logic and variables and all that real programmer stuff?

OK, enough with the doom and gloom and attempts to temper your expectations.
Putting myself in the shoes of someone who is obviously indulging in a low budget hobby, I think we can come up with something that will work. But first you need to do two things.

First, you WILL have to make an investment. You NEED to spend that $25 on the license for UNO ControlCenter. Your current patchwork method of creating/loading sysex into your FCB may or may not work for you, but I absolutely will not attempt to help you if you won't get that license. It will enable us to use a common set of tools to create and troubleshoot a solution.

While I recommend that investment for anyone using the UNO chip, feel free to consider the following (part 2) for discussion before you buy the license if you're more comfortable that way.

Second, you will have to decide upon and describe SPECIFICALLY what controls you need for each of your 8 tracks including both S-Gear, other plugins and the Ableton components, and whether you need to integrate Ableton's recording functions. You have 10 buttons. Use them wisely. While functions can be spread over multiple banks, KISS theory applies! I'll also need to know which of the plugins on each track are Ableton (no separate MIDI track or channel required) and which are third party (like S-Gear).

I'm going out now and won't be able to respond again until tomorrow, so take your time considering how you want the configuration to work.

EJ - thanks for the detailed and thoughtful info. 

Quick Feedback

• I *thought* i was purchasing the UNO chip I needed.  Should I return the 1.04 chip and get the Uno2?
• I love and have used Reaper for years - its my primary DAW for tracking so using that over Ableton is a positive
• No problem purchasing the UNO control center if that gets me to where I need to go
• Have lots of experience in VScode and that is not an issue
• I am not syncing with you on the need to use a MIDI track per preset in Ableton as the current solution I set up with 8 channels/signal chains and 0 MIDI tracks works flawlessly with the original Behringer firmware.
• the only issue is that I don't have access to a stomp mode nor tap tempo.
• For now I am going to swap the old behringer prom back for my gig tomorrow

Thanks again for the help

Carl

On Sat, Feb 19, 2022 at 04:30 PM, humbuckr wrote:

I am not syncing with you on the need to use a MIDI track per preset in Ableton as the current solution I set up with 8 channels/signal chains and 0 MIDI tracks works flawlessly with the original Behringer firmware.

I'm not familiar with the plugins you named, and maybe things work differently in MAC World. So, if you're controlling them without a MIDI track, cool. All I know is that you asked about controlling S-Gear in Ableton, so I assumed that you were asking about controlling S-Gear in Ableton. Again, maybe things work differently in MAC World, but in PC Land you need a MIDI track to get messages to S-Gear in any of the DAWs I've used (Reaper, Ableton, Cakewalk and that other one that I hated - Studio1 maybe?). The only plugins that don't require a MIDI track are the native Ableton plugs.

I don't know if you can return the UNO chip in exchange for UNO2, you'll have to ask. All of what you said seems to indicate that you'll have no trouble learning to use UNO2. Your experience with Reaper causes me to wonder why you chose Ableton, but hey, I don't even use Ableton except for crazy looping stuff. I use a proper Grid Controller to control the Loops and then bring it into Reaper with ReaRoute. 

In any case, while you're waiting for your UNO2 Chip, read the first two sections of the UNO2 manual and when you get the UNO2 Chip you should have no trouble loading the S-Gear.txt file. With your programming experience you should have no trouble modifying it as necessary for your purposes. The "Instructions for S-Gear UNO2.txt" file explains what I set it up to do. Heck, you might even be able to improve on it. All of those UNO2 files I wrote for various devices and Amp Sims were first efforts, programming exercises really, that I did in the first couple of weeks that I had UNO2. I haven't really done anything with UNO2 since then other than make minor temporary mods to one file or another to test things. The files as posted work fine on the devices/SW that I wrote them for, all of which I own except for the AXEFX. Waiting to win the lotto so I can afford one of those :-). TBH the only time I play through a VST is when I'm bored. My Helix sounds better than any of them but sometimes I need a change, and VSTs like S-Gear, Amplitube and THU can be a fun change-up.

Anyhow, have fun with UNO2 and let me know how it works out for you.

thanks for the follow up EJ.  I hear you re: "Helix". its nice to have everything integrated into a single box.  I have spent a ton of time wrestling with the 1010 to get stompbox and tap tempo to work and still no luck.

As far as why use Ableton over Reaper for my live rig:

• the latency feels better to me.  can't say exactly why
• the MIDI programming is very flexible wrt VSTs as well as native and third party plugins.
• I can set up Songs with BPM tempos in the session view and easily include backing tracks when some of the people in my band forget their parts :-). 

As far as Windows vs Mac and the MIDI channel for VSTs based on your comment

"In order to route MIDI to a VST (vs Ableton itself) you need to create a MIDI track to receive the MIDI messages from the FCB.

Here's my workflow in Ableton for creating custom signal chains on each track (works same windows/MacOS)

1. Create an Audio track
2. drag the S-gear AU onto the the signal chain area on the bottom (see my earlier images)
3. add other native/third party plugins as needed.  (I like the waves compressors for instance)
4. Hit "configure" on the s-Gear plugin and then click on the s-gear UI buttons you need (e.g. amp gain, trem speed, delay speed/timing, etc)
5. deselect  configuration mode when you have the param you need enabled
6. click the MIDI learn upper right in Ableton
7. Select the parameter you want to work with
8. press the 1010 button / pedal that you want to map to that parameter
9. specify the exact min/max values you want (e.g. 0 - .4 rather than 1 which is the parameter maxed)
10. unselect the MIDI learn button then test the 1010 function with the parameter.

Repeat this for any parameter you want to map.

The big reason why I am using Ableton over the native Schuffham VST client is that I can specify unique button mapping for EACH preset channel.  This allows me to use the expression pedal to control trem speed on one channel and amp gain on a different one.  I have a HUGE variety of options I can easily map and it only take s few seconds.

the only thing i CAN'T do is to get the stompbox mode working.  this would be a game changer as right now If I use button 8 for example to turn on a harmonizer effect on one channel the light on the 1010 may or may not be light indicating an ON state for the effect since it just toggles the plugin ON/OFF.  the light may be ON when the effect is OFF.  this is driving me to drink and expalins why I have spent the last two weeks fighting with the v1.0.4 chip.

I would be happy to do a zoom meeting with anyone interested in how to use Ableton in the way I am describing.  It basically opens up a zillion options and is easy to do.

Carl

Now that you described how you're controlling S-Gear w/o a MIDI track I remember. Long ago (LIVE 8?) I tried that method with some VSTs that didn't allow MIDI mapping in their UIs. It worked so poorly that I never bothered with it again. Revisiting tonight, I tried 4 "normal" VSTs - that is, mainstream VSTs that allow Global parameter mapping.

S-Gear worked as you described but required using CONFIGURE to manually select which parameters you want to control. It sure would be nice to have a LEARN function in the S-Gear UI!

THU automatically CONFIGUREd  almost every Globally mappable parameter (which is almost everything in THU) except for the latest additions - SCENES and some of the Looper functions - which could not be accessed using CONFIGURE no matter what I tried. EVERYTHING maps in the THU UI using a direct MIDI Track.

Amplitube didn't work at all using CONFIGURE but maps perfectly in it's own UI using a direct MIDI track and w/o the intermediate CONFIGURE step. Unfortunately, very little is Global, mostly per preset tedium.

Helix Native also did not work at all (but differently dysfunctional) with CONFIGURE but maps perfectly using a direct MIDI track w/o the intermediate CONFIGURE step. Also nothing is Global.

So it would seem that the ability to use the Ableton UI for MIDI control of VSTs is handy when it works, but that depends entirely on the way that the VST is programmed. Not all VSTs will work.

STOMPBOX MODE

With UNO2 you won't have a problem with this as (within the constrictions of the FCB's memory) you can have as many proper Stompbox switches as you like mapped to as many channels/devices as you like.
With UNO you only get 5 Stompboxes, sending the same CC#s in every FCB Preset, so it would never have worked as you hoped.
While you can technically have as many toggling CCs as you want in UNO, the non-stompbox ones do not reflect the ON/OFF status with the LEDs and the default value gets re-sent each time you press a different FS and then come back (they don't remember the last message sent like Stompboxes).
The Stock chip can also do toggling CCs but doesn't do Stompboxes at all, and, well, this is one of the reasons UNO was created in the first place.

As to latency. Once someone has decided that they can detect differences in latency smaller than 10ms there's no point arguing. It's totally subjective regardless of objective measurements and scientific research. All I can say is that reported latency in LIVE and Reaper is identical at 128smpls (12.2ms) and 64smpls (7.6ms). That's using a 2nd gen Scarlett 18i20. Research (google it - I think it was the RIAA or some such) has shown that human musicians don't begin to detect latency until it reaches 8-10ms (singers and wind instrument players lower due to jawbone conduction). Just sayin'. Everybody is different and science is not infallible.

Glad you got VST's to work in Ableton w/o a dedicated MIDI track.  Cool.  I am focused on S-Gear now (as I believe it hits the sweet spot of tone, variety and simplicity) and the configure capability exposes the parameters I need.  Their mac/windows client DOES provide a MIDI learn feature that is global but this is not exposed in the plugin.

Since I bought the 1.0.4 prom - am I screwed wrt stomp and tap tempo?

I purchased the PROM from an ebay seller https://www.ebay.ca/usr/funkdewbie?ul_noapp=true and after not being able to get the prom working I attempted to return it in exchange for the UNO2.  The seller flipped out on me and has sent me some pretty harsh emails letting me know what an idiot I am and that he won't process a refund...

If there is ANY way to get the 1.0.4 prom working I'm all ears.  I am cool with dedicating the SAME stompbox numbers on EACH of the 5 presets.  

thanks again.

On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 01:40 PM, humbuckr wrote:

Glad you got VST's to work in Ableton w/o a dedicated MIDI track.

ONLY S-GEAR.

"I purchased the PROM from an ebay seller https://www.ebay.ca/usr/funkdewbie?ul_noapp=true and after not being able to get the prom working I attempted to return it in exchange for the UNO2.  The seller flipped out on me and has sent me some pretty harsh emails letting me know what an idiot I am and that he won't process a refund..."

So you saved a coupla bucks by buying it from a Pirate on eBay and expected customer service?

UNO_ControlCenter sysex attached. Spend the $25 to buy the license from the guy (the CREATOR) you should've bought the chip from in the first place.

OR 

You could buy the chip you NEED - UNO2 - which comes with UNO2 Control Center and a proper MIDI Monitor.

Just don't buy it from an eBay Pirate!